Here is part 2 of my truly excellent recording with Andrew and Eli. We commiserate, we give our answers to a lot of the common questions, we laughed, we feared and I feel slightly better knowing I’ll still have these two amazing people and more to get me through this. I hope everyone else is as lucky as I am!
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Hillary was the adult in the room. Bernie’s policies weren’t nearly as realistic, and Trump, Johnson and Stein were off the edge of the earth. But for all of Hillary’s experience, qualifications, realistic policies and Political Rectitude, guess what: SHE LOST.
It would be interesting to know what a candidate who was not as far left as Sanders, but who was not the personal hate magnet that Hillary Clinton was, would have done.
Maybe we lowly simulates could prevail on the Simulators of our universe to run that scenario and tell us how it turned out. [Are you listening up there?]
Thank god that at least Andrew Torres understands why Hillary lost the rust belt.
Getting to sick and tired of hearing how it’s just a bunch of racists – who consequently voted for Obama twice – who just hate minorities because reasons.
Hillary didn’t just do it to Trump supporters with the “basket of deplorables” INSANITY (my god, how could you be so idiotic?!) but she also did it to male Bernie supporters (sexist Bernie bros) and female Bernie Supporters (bringing on feminist icons to call them sluts who deserve hell).
She then turned around and said “vote for me, plebs, or you’re racist/sexist”.
She went out of her way to disenfranchise just about everyone possible and she’s surprised she couldn’t beat Trump.
The working class whites in the rust belt know the jobs aren’t coming back. The also know it was a Clinton who helped send them away. Now they’re facing another clinton, another globalist trade deal, and the only person who can say “We have your back” – even if it’s b.s. – is Trump.
Hillary paid no attention to the rust belt and her supporters – the likes of Eli Bosnick – has spent the past decade demonizing them as a bunch of privileged white people (now racists apparently).
They do need job training and support. Unfortunately, race based affirmative action doesn’t care about them. It’s why I argue for class based affirmative action. We used to be the party OF white working class america. We let b.s. identity politics rob us of that.
Certainly doesn’t help that Hillary supporters – like Bosnick – respond with , literally, “Trump supporters are either evil or stupid”.
yeah.
winning strategy.
You scoff at Christina Hoff Summers. I’ll tell you this: She is ONE MILLION BILLION TRILLION times more sensible than Eli Bosnick on her most absurd of days.
Glass houses kid.
“It’s time to stop suffering fools gladly” – Eli Bosnick.
Let the irony sink in.
Then he mentions Dave Rubin.
Yeah, don’t listen to the guy who is telling you why this happened. Listen to the ideologue who has no clue.
OK……….you all need help.
“we need to stop pretending everyone has an opinion worthy of respect” – Eli Bosnick.
LET THE IRONY SINK IN.
The comedy writes itself.
I’m out. The left will continue to lose so long as people take this b.s. seriously. If you ever need a lesson in “not getting it” listen to this podcast.
My god. Just wow.
Yea. I was pretty disappointed, it sounded like a exercise in amnesia and denial. Not I know why I’m still an independent. It’s pretty ironic when you sound like the people you make fun of.
The first thing they do in the manufacture of high-fructose corn syrup is wash the corn kernels in sulfuric acid to break down the outer membrane and begin to release the sugary goodness inside.
My acquaintances who worked in the HR offices of government institutions and were educational system administrators and such sound just like Thomas and his friends when they talk. PC is the bedrock of the bubbles that these folks live in. I’m not saying Political Correctness in incorrect, but I do realize that there is half a country out there that seethes at its mention—and they just won . . . the presidency . . . and the legislature . . . and, within a few months, the Supreme Court.
Maybe the acid bath of (at least) four years of a Trump-led Tea Party Nation will break down the outer membranes of our progressive liberal bubbles and we will begin to “get it.” Or not.
I think Eli Bosnick is funny in God Awful Movies, but I feel that his philosophy when it comes to political engagement is totally wrong. Anybody taking his advice is making a big mistake. Eli seems to advocate using a sort of litmus test before engaging in any sort of arguing aver ideas. It may not be Eli’s style, but I feel he is doing a disservice when he tells other people not to engage.
I do have some understand of his distaste, part of it may come from that face the the venue he is using is Facebook and Twitter. In my personal opinion, Facebook and Twitter are the worst venues for putting forth an argument based on logic and facts. We really need to start moving the discussion to forum based platforms. It you don’t know what I am talking about see http://www.rvforum.net/SMF_forum/index.php https://forums.gentoo.org/ .
The only way you can change someone’s mind is to engage them in a conversation. To tell some one that you once said X, you are wrong and I will not discuss anything with you is wrong. People can not be shamed into changing there mind. Even those people that do have an open mind can not be shamed into changing there mind if they feel that An idea is not worthy of shame. Only if you can convince them why something is wrong will they change there mind.
I have heard Eli saying he will not engage with Sam Harris Thunderf00t, however these two would have been very good Allies in the fight against the election of Trump. If you really listen to what they have said about trump you will know they were both serious about getting people to vote for Clinton to block Trump.
https://youtu.be/r2w7dk_HocY
https://youtu.be/9v6tpcjeESs;
If the website petitions.whitehouse.gov it still up after Trump takes office we need to start a petition on behalf of all the Infowars supporters that supported Trump. According to Alex Johns, 9/11 was an inside job. Now that Trump in in office those supporters need know what has Donald Trump’s team done to uncover the people responsible for the most murderous conspiracy in U.S. history. When you post your petition be sure to screen capture it, in case it is taken down. Also be sure to post that this petition is posted on behalf of his supporters on Infowars people that helped kickstart his campaign in the early days. These early adopters really need to know Trump’s opinion on 9/11 being an inside job.
Anyone hear listen to Naked Mormonism? The podcast started about two years ago. The podcast follows the events in chronological order of Joseph Smith’s rise to power. I listened in amazement, Smith was such an obvious fraud the evidence was everywhere, people just had to open their eyes. I could hardly believe that people in those days could be so stupid. Then I watched as Donald Trump an obvious fraud can to power. I could not believe it. If Joseph Smith had reincarnated in modern times, he would have to came back as Donald Trump.
— I read this through several times making small changes here and there and am still uncomfortable with it’s feel… I do NOT intend for this to be snarky. I love this podcast, and you, Eli, and Andrew as well … (man, oh man, Open Arguments is brilliant as well!) —
Dearest Thomas/Atheistically speaking,
I just finished these two episodes. The opening on the first one was raw, emotional and yanked at me viscerally.
So, I wanted to admit that I’m one of the people you said “fuck you” too. It’s ok, I accept the criticism. I, uh, deserve it, I guess, but when I think back on it I’m not sure if I could/would/should change anything… I don’t even disagree in principle with the general conclusion that voting for third party candidates/not voting at all while claiming that doing so was sending a message is a self defeating and demonstrably ineffective vector for that end. For me it’s truly a sense of futility in concert with a genuine lack of enthusiasm for Hillary.
I’m liberal. Like very liberal and i’m from Texas. Now, I no longer live there and in fact i’ve spent the better part of my adult life in Sweden (In fact i’m a dual citizen since 2002). Growing up and even going to college in Texas I grew accustomed to seeing my opinions on religion, liberties, minorities, and even justice so I disparaged that I grew inure to the inevitable caning my “peers” and I would see in presidential elections due to the tyranny of the majority exacted upon me by the Electoral College.
I’m not against the EC, mind you, but I don’t understand why we cannot broadly adapt the type of tallying states like Maine and Nebraska already have in place.
Regarding Hillary and the Clinton’s in general: I am not a fan. This doesn’t mean that i’m blind to what until a few days ago appeared to be an existential threat to our nation’s core values (It’s just that since last Tuesday I’ve seen Trump and his appointee-hopefuls backpedal on several of his prior positions… Still scary? Without Question! Absolutely! But his new poise and frankly even speaking style is so transformed from before Nov 8th I simply don’t know what i’m dealing with anymore). I could go through my list of dislikes about Hillary (ridiculous pursuit of high paid speaking positions, a weirdly transparent and almost Machiavellian attention to present audience when answering questions, a history of hawkish military engagement, questionable history attacking her husband’s dalliances/victims …. ok, i’ll stop ) but it’s really not worth it. I admit it. She was decidedly less evil than Trump. But the point is this:
For my own part at least .. if you combine *the democratic candidate* with an overwhelming feeling of voter disenfranchisement. What do you expect? Do we think there are plenty of likeminded individuals with the same sort of political ennui? I do. In fact I’m convinced of it.
I cannot help but feel that we have several problems and in no particular order:
1) HRC should not have been the candidate, alternatively, she should have done as Andrew suggested and directly addressed the challenges to defeat them. Our people are a suspicious lot. And by not taking this head on she inadvertently fed a lot of what Trump was already saying about her.
2) We cannot ignore that many people *DID* vote for Trump and with a good conscience. This means something. There are a great many people who genuinely responded positively to Trump’s scary, xenophobic campaign rhetoric.
3) I think the way our votes are tallied is critical to voter turnout. This needs to be solved or I need to find a way to emergency register in swing states while living abroad or I **KNOW FOR SURE** that my vote will not matter while tallied in Texas. This isn’t just voter laziness: it’s a historical fact (at least for the last many elections and even this one saw a near 10 point difference between the candidates).
Okay…. Crazy long post from someone you’ve never even met. Love the show, and i’m both genuinely sad for the election outcome while steadfastly maintaining that my vote wouldn’t have mattered anyway.
/geir
I read it, and agree. if you are a solidaly red/blue state WTF is a pezz vote going to do.
Dear Thomas:
I am a 28 YO Cuban-American dude from Miami. I have a stable profitable job, an awesome wife, a kid underway… I really want for nothing and couldn’t be happier in life. Before I go on, I’d like to apologize profoundly for whatever part we Cuban-Americans took in electing Donald MF Trump to the presidency of the United States. I did all in my power to prevent it, but sometimes, you’re truly swimming against the current.
I write not to complain, but to point something out I’m sure none of you guys noticed as it was happening. The evening of the election, I felt quite similarly to you. Sad, Angry, Dismayed… but safe in my person and assured on the safety of my family. I remember angrily when Trump came down to Versailles, a famous Cuban coffee shop.. and talked and agitated and made my people swallow his bull. The same bull every republican presidential candidate makes us swallow… they come down, they have a shot of expresso, they yell “Viva Cuba Libre” in broken Spanish and they take off. Forgetting the pleas of my community for another 4 years until its time to go to the ballot again. I’m sure we are not the only buyers in the time-share of their hypocrisy.
Anyways. During the podcast, (and I know you guys meant no ill by it) You, Eli and Andrew make it a point to mention you guys do not feel physically threatened by Trump because of your particular circumstances. Whether race, or wealth, or professional preparation, or all three, Trump does not present that particular threat to you as it represents to the poor Muslim, or the uneducated Black, or the undocumented Hispanic. This is quite true. But I’d like to point out, that although true, there are fewer things in life more disheartening than the feeling that “as the ship sinks, your companions jump into a different lifeboat”. We know we are together in these dark times. but what will fill my heart is knowing that we are those 300 Gerard Butler led into battle. we live or die together and no one has or wants a special out. a secret passageway out of danger.
The heart of the unfortunate will sink if he hears he is in more danger than you. for the sake of all of us, do not even contemplate that benefit life has given you, but tie your luck to his. his end be your end and mine. his victory, yours. and you’ll have the fiercest Spartan in him.
anyways, I did not intend to preach. I am sure this will all be moot by the time we are “6 billion hunks of well done steak” as Tom Lehrer brilliantly put it. I think his song was sadly resurrected and brought back to relevance this past week.
Tom Lehrer : We will all go together when we go..
Well, I am a white male (born and raised in Utah—you can only get whiter in Idaho) and I don’t feel that safe. For one thing, I am moderately educated, one bachelor’s degree and one two-year tech school certificate. The white male juggernaut that is sweeping to power here is the un- or under-educated white male contingent. Bubba is back. College educated people, who the Bubbites think of as “intellectuals,” go into their basket of deplorables along with women, brown people, non-straight-cisgender people and other-than-evangelical-Christian believers. I imagine anyone regardless of gender, orientation, race, religion or education who self-identifies as “liberal” would go in that basket, as well. In Pol Pot’s Cambodia they executed many “intellectuals” and academics in a supposed effort to get back to basics and create a pure agrarian utopia. And you don’t have to actually shoot people, either. You can imprison, stigmatize or marginalize them with similar longterm results. It happened in our lifetime on our planet. Tell me again what makes us immune?
Any regime that talks about “rounding people up” is just plain dangerous. It doesn’t matter who they are rounding up or why they say they are doing it. If rounding people up and “deporting” them or “detaining” them based on some group identity is seen as a solution to a problem, it will spread as more and more “problems” are blamed on the “others” among “us.” It is so easy to become the other in circumstances like that. If you disagree with one policy point of the regime, you can find yourself considered “other” and out on your ear, or worse. Before the Nazi’s were done, they had extended their roundups to homosexuals and gypsies and had pretty much decided ethnic Slavs were useful only as beasts of burden. The other horrible part is that it doesn’t stop when all of the visibly “other” folks have been removed or suppressed in one way or another. The “Us Supremacy” paradigm turns to cannibalism when it runs out of “other” meat to eat. The subtlest divergence from “pure” thought can be magnified into huge rifts and waring factions. This has happened a lot in religion. Muslims, for instance, kill far more doctrinally “erroneous” Muslims than they kill anyone else.
So, I might be safer for a while, but I don’t have any delusions about remaining so indefinitely. And as a retired senior, I don’t think a Trump administration is going to do anything positive for me at all. The Republican hierarchy, which Trump can’t climb into bed with fast enough now that he’s one of them, have vowed to tear down the so-called “entitlement” programs I contributed to for 45 years.
No, I personally don’t feel safe.
. . . . . . .
I’ve loved Tom Leher for years. His stuff’s become a little dated what with LBJ and Hubert Humphrey and that crowd all gone now, but maybe a Trump administration will set the US back forty or fifty years and make Leher’s stuff relevant again. See, there IS a silver lining to every cloud.
I think you guys are a little off on the whole Bernie thing. Clinton is currently winning the popular vote by almost a million votes, so apparently the American people actually preferred her overall. Trump won because he, ironically, tore down a wall, the so-called “blue wall,” and flipped so many safe democratic states. I think it’s not too hard to imagine Sanders carrying Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania and winning the election regardless of how many ads comparing him to Soviet communism Trump’s campaign ran. I mean, he did pull off that shocking upset in Michigan during the primary.
But I don’t know. Voters are also stupid and will toss out the party in power after too long just for fun. Sigh.
Also, one last thing on the idea that Bernie’s policy proposals were falling apart near the end. I think it’s important to scrutinize and be critical of every political candidates policies and plans, but we tend to forget that Obama rode into the White House on, essentially, platitudes. At least that’s how I remember it. 2008 was my first election and maybe I’m not remembering it clearly, but it felt like he ran on nothing but hope, change and maybe no more war (oh how naive we were). It was an exciting and awesome time to be a democratic voter. Hillary never did that for me even though I did vote for her.
Anyway, love the show and even if you don’t agree and make fun of me, I’ll probably still listen.
On a humorous note: When Nixon was facing a possible impeachment, the question on everyone’s lips was, “What did he know and when did he know it?”. When Trump is facing possible impeachment, the question on everyone’s lips will be “What did he tweet and when did he tweet it?”.
I’m a new listener to this particular pod cast but I’ve been listening to Scathing Atheist and OA for some time now and enjoy listening. My comment is HOPEFULLY going to be short and sweet as I hear this argument CONSTANTLY and just have to call BULLSHIT on it AGAIN and AGAIN!!! But unfortunately I tend to get on a roll so bare with me if it becomes long and succulent lol!!
The argument I’m referring too is the one AGAINST the idea that Sanders would have won handily due to his “socialism” and the exploitation of that word that I just heard Andrew make. I find this to be COMPLETELY ABSURD and here is why. The youth and the uneducated have little understanding of the word “socialism” much less the historical context of the word and I thought that Sanders, his surrogates and his supporters steadied those concerns, were they out there, and made them a non factor during the primaries. I find that the concerns addressed with Bernie’s “socialism” during a general election is not only nonsense but was bore out by the results of the election leaving us with a president elect Donald FUCKING Trump, the most despicable individual who has run for the office in modern day.
I think sometimes Liberals are to smart for their own good thinking that SURELY the general public will react negatively to the word “socialism” when in fact NOT ONLY could they careless about THAT word but they OBVIOUSLY didn’t care two shits about these words either; “con-man,” “crook,” “criminal,” “pathological liar,” “adulterer,” “racist,” “rapist,” “child molester,” “xenophobe,” “Islamophobe,” “elitist,” “egomaniac,” “bombastic,” “bully,” “idiot” and the list goes on and on and on. NOT ONLY did they not care about those WORDS either, they also didn’t care that the man labeled with such ATROCIOUS descriptors over and over again was running for POTUS. AND NOT ONLY did they not care that he was running for POTUS… the general public that SO MANY thought would RUN IN FEAR if hearing the word “socialist” in regards to Bernie Sanders, was ELECTED TO BE OUR NEXT FUCKING PRESIDENT…UGH!!!
So would being labeled a “socialist” really have made as BIG of a difference as was predicted and as much as I’m STILL hearing on this particular episode?? Well to those who wouldn’t have voted for him anyway…certainly not. To those who are plane SICK and TIRED of politics as usual…nah probably not to them either as was proven by the fact that the man ELECTED POTUS was called FAR WORSE than “socialist” time and time again!!! I’m from Texas, and I can’t tell you HOW MANY of my Independent or Republican friends FIRST told me that they liked Bernie over Hillary, THEN EVEN TOLD ME that they would have voted for a Bernie over a Trump…that in the end ACTUALLY CAME OUT IN FULL FORCE FOR TRUMP…UGH!!!
So as liberals/progressives…let’s try not to outsmart ourselves here guys and gals…let’s use our hearts, our minds and our intuition on the pulse of Merica and OPEN OUR EYES to the FACT that the Merican people WANT CHANGE…BIG CHANGE that they can TRULY FEEL!!! SOCIALIZED MEDICINE, K-16 EDUCATION, STUDENT DEBT RELIEF and last but not least REINVESTMENT IN AMERICA!!! THESE are the things that liberals/progressives should be fighting for and THESE are the things that we should DEMAND…at ALL COST if we want to redirect this raging populist wave BACK over to the GOOD side of history providing the Merican people REAL HOPE and REAL CHANGE that they can NOT JUST BELIEVE IN…BUT THAT THEY CAN ACTUALLY FEEL!!!
Oh and just one more thing…all of this talk about how his policies in the end were falling short in terms of funding. WELL FUCK that HAS TO ONLY ASSUME that there would be NO MORE change in revenues. NO INCREASE on the taxes paid by the millionaires, the billionaires or the corporations of this country or on taxes being paid (if at all) on financial transactions in the market which are just a few areas that could have raised BILLIONS of dollars in revenue to be able to afford WHAT AMERICANS WANT for themselves, their families and their loved ones. It’s a give up that we heard from Hillary over and over again that dowsed the flames of enthusiasm that Bernie had sparked in SO MANY…and we must once and for all EXTINGUISH that CAN’T DO mentality…IMMEDIATELY!!! With the will and back OF THE PEOPLE…WE CAN DO ANYTHING!!!
Love ALL the shows guys…keep up the good work!!!
Good point about how words and their meaning, perceived or otherwise, didn’t do Trump any harm at all—everyone voters, media, opposition just didn’t care. And most of those words weren’t so much accusations as they were simple descriptions, the truth of which were demonstrable by playing back the tapes with Trump’s own words on them.
We’ll never know for sure how a Bernie/Trump general would have gone, but I’d still love to know. The fact that Bernie polled well over Trump during the primaries has been pooh-poohed eight ways from Sunday by those who still want to think that Hillary was our only real choice for a viable nominee, the other half of that projection, that a race between Hillary and Trump would be a dead heat, turned out to be painfully dead-nuts accurate.
I’m sure this episode of “Bubba Goes To Washington” will be entertaining as all hell, but I’m about ready to hang it up and join a silent monastery. I’ll poke my head out in four years and you guys can tell me all about how it went and whether or not the Dems ever “got it.” Or if we have president-elect Cruz or Duke cued up by then.
That’s one thing the atheist community is sorely lacking: silent communes where you can go and stew in your own juices for a couple of decades now and again to get closer to the Void. Hmmmm . . . (do I smell a business opportunity?)
This article added some nuance to my view on what Trump represents:
http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-wolf/
It give some evidence for hope.
An open Letter to Eli Bosnick. I find your participation on the GAM-cast to be funny and entertaining. However, I feel when you advocate shutting out people that you disagree with, you are promoting an idea that is detrimental to the long term stability of society. I feel that in order to determine who has the best ideas, those idea must be exposed to the bright light of public debate. During that debate bad idea will inevitably come up. However once brought to light those bad ideas can be slayed by logic and reason. When you shut out people you disagree with the bad ideas are held underground and allowed to fester and metastasize.
During one podcast you recalled how when you engages someone on Twitter and you tried to respond rationally and you were then pummeled with a barrage of shit-posting. My reply has two parts. Item one, not all people are willing or able to respond with a logical argument. Item two, twitter is a shitty platform to discuss/debate serious issues. Often it requires multiple sentences and even paragraphs to hash out an idea.
When it comes someone that has a differing opinion on social justice warriors I have found a YouTuber I agree much of the time. This person goes under the pin name “Wizard Of Cause”. In the video I linked, he explains the reason why he feels that the social justice has failed to aid those that it is suppose to help. I tend to agree with him.
In my opinion you do not have the debate chops to handle him in a clash of ideas. I am not just saying that to be an ass-hole, I genuinely believe that you would not be able to counter his ideas during a debate. When your role is to provide comic relief in a podcast, it is not necessary for you to defend a political idea against an articulate opponent. However if you wish to promulgate political ideas you should be willing to defend those ideas in a public debate. Or on the other hand you should have someone in your corner that has the where-with-all to defend those ideas.
I feel that Noah Lugeons does have the debate chops to challenge “Wizard Of Cause” on a debate of ideas. I also feel that if Noah Lugeons and Wizard Of Cause were to have a discussion/debate they would agree with each other and disagree with you on many of the issues that disagree with you on. Also if Noah and Wizard where to disagree on an issue, I don’t know ahead of time who I would agree with, but I do know that I would have two well reasoned positions that come to different conclusions.
https://youtu.be/MP6jA1MZr8I